15 Replies to “Recirculated Air?”

  2. Andrew:
    ” “Everything is intentional and nothing is left to chance.””

  3. Wow. Amazing interview. Illogical, ill-informed, vague. Have you ever actually spent time in classrooms? Ever spoken to teachers? Also protip: Folks that point out the correlation between poverty and academic struggles take the suggestion that they are “throwing up their hands” as a punch in the gut. A sucker punch. Anti-intellectualism, doubling down on failed approaches are not going to help public schools. Please get out a bit more. You guys are killing public education. Another protip: want fresh ideas? Subscribe to “Rethinking Education.” See what REAL reformers are up to.

  4. Interesting discussion but I have to protest the use of the word ‘Industry’ to describe the education system. I understand it is common parlance, especially among free marketers, but it is no more an industry than health care. Odd that we say the legal ‘profession’ but don’t tacitly give the same recognition of professionalism in our common discourse to either education or health care.
    I think that has to change as well if true and lasting education reform is to become a reality.

  6. I too, heard a bit of today’s interview and have to agree with Mr. Keane. Mr. Eduwonk has little credibility if he hasn’t spent a minimum of a couple years teaching a class of children in a public school. The egalitarianism of public schools includes every child that walks (or rolls) in the door. Charter schools by their very nature are exclusionary and hence promote skewed statistics and veiled motives. As charter schools attract children whose parents are educated, employed, speak and read English and usually have cars, the remaining children are increasingly concentrated in classrooms with fewer resources, parents unable to assist and usually a higher turnover of teachers and staff.

    The only thing that most teachers (and researchers) can agree makes a significant difference is smaller class size. If you don’t believe me, take a look at the class sizes of the best schools money can buy (Exeter 8-12, Berkeley Prep 18, cf. Wikipedia)

    Sign me as another teacher in the trenches doing a slow burn at all the attention given to pundits, billionaires and poli-sci majors who think they know how to fix American education. Most teachers are often too busy, too tired or too afraid to speak out.

  7. “Mr. Eduwonk has little credibility if he hasn’t spent a minimum of a couple years teaching a class of children in a public school.” This is like saying an oncologist doesn’t have any credibility unless he’s suffered from cancer for a couple years. Conversely, the same logic would dictate that having a headache makes you qualified to perform brain surgery.

    Of course, the truth is that Andy has had more direct and varied experience in education that most people, but that doesn’t matter to those folks (like the commenters above) that are in the death throes of the anti-reform movement.

  9. Mr. Rotherham talked about creating a professional identity for teachers. I’ve been a teacher for 20 years in public schools and I think teachers have a very strong identity as professionals.

    What Mr. Rotherham does not address adequately is just how creating competition within schools through merit pay would be beneficial to teachers and students. If my fellow teachers and I are competing for higher salary and higher student test scores, what incentive is there for us to work together? In my experience, teachers are really not in the profession primarily for the money and we, of course, want our colleagues to succeed. The fact is we do not work in a for-profit industry turning out a product that the market embraces or doesn’t. When we fail we fail the next generation of people in our society. And who is better than the teachers, who are actually in the classroom, at judging the success of students? We need good standardized tests, but do we really think that these tests should be the main element in determining whether students have made progress? Why are we always looking for a way to fire teachers instead of inspiring our talented young people to want to teach? And, furthermore, if we are going to shine a light on problems in schools, why are state and federal bureaucracy not scrutinized more thoroughly?

    Talk to any public school teachers and they can give you a hundred ways the state and local level could save money. Instead we are larded with testing requirements and (in some cases) overpaid administrators. When cuts have to be made–and there have been major cuts nationwide–how many administrators are let go before the teachers? Who is actually working with the students? Good administrators are essential, of course, but I rarely hear the inefficiencies and costs of administering schools discussed in the debate on education.

    My uncle was a legendary high school English teacher in a public school. He built a 30+ year career as a professional through his own ingenuity and effort, and through community support and a teacher’s union. If critics of unions and tenure don’t think that 15 years into his career some administrator wouldn’t have said, “Hey, we’re short of money…we could fire Mr. J and have enough money to pay two new teachers” well then you’ve never worked in public education. And, my uncle was a strong voice in questioning administrators when they needed to be questioned, and so he needed protection in order to do the right thing for students. Weaker unions make for a weaker professional identity for teachers. I’m not saying unions do not need to be more flexible and open to new solutions, but they do need to protect teachers’ rights. We need teachers like my uncle to become beacons of excellence and to be able to build long careers where they make some money and have some job security. That’s what will attract teachers. And, as Ms. Ravitch points out, the most successful states and nations have unionized teachers.

    Mr. Rotherham suggests that we are part of some industrial, unionized relic of a system, but that is utterly unconvincing to me. Updating our identity by pretending we are in a for-profit business is foolish. Sources of income for public schools are limited. We are not trying to come up with the next iPhone and then sharing the profits. And, the big squeeze in is on when it comes to funding. In my district whenever cuts are made (and drastic cuts were made here in NJ last year), the cuts go to the public schools in my district, while the charter schools get full funding! Charter schools make sense in some cases, but I work in a high-performing district where a charter school isn’t even necessary. Yet, this year’s budget saw 60% of state money go to the 10% of the students in our district in charter schools! Our public school budget was slashed and the charter schools had full funding. It’s like forcing a company to have a subsidiary and then making all the cuts to the parent company. What sense does it make to drive a public school out of business?

    Bottom line: our schools and communities have a variety of strengths and weaknesses, so be suspicious of anyone saying they have the answer to nationwide school reform. In my experience, the best schools are those (of course) with excellent teachers and community support. Success comes at the local level. The best teachers and schools do, as Mr. Rotherham says, have a very strong and clear intention to do all they can to help students learn. I’m very thankful to have the privilege of working with students every day and thankful that I work in a community where families are involved in our schools and hold us accountable and are willing to pay teachers a fair salary. Well, if you’re still reading, thanks for letting me vent, because so little of the debate about education has anything to do with what actually happens in classrooms–and I see a lot of great kids engaged in learning every day. Place more trust in teachers–give them security and support and the power to make decisions about what and how to teach and the teaching profession will attract creative and motivated teachers. Threaten them with firing, salary cuts, lower pensions, and more testing requirements and you will have low morale and a dim future for public schools.

  10. CJ: Thanks for your illuminating post. I especially like your analogy (put into terms that the ‘business’ types can understand): “Our public school budget was slashed and the charter schools had full funding. It’s like forcing a company to have a subsidiary and then making all the cuts to the parent company. What sense does it make to drive a public school out of business?” Well put!

  11. I can’t let the illogical teacher/oncologist analogy go by uncorrected:

    An “educator” without teaching experience is like an “oncologist” who hasn’t had any cancer patients.

    Neither one is desirable, but at least in the medical field everyone knows it.

  12. The distortions in Ms. Ravitch’s descriptions of so many elements of our federal education policy are so numerous and extreme as to be absolutely breathtaking. At the same time, Andy, I think the reformers make their case in a way that too complex for public consumption (in part due to intellectual honesty, a good thing) and give the defenders of the status quo too much ground. Rather than “intentionality” as the common denominator in schools that work, let’s be more direct–the schools that work work because they believe that any student can fulfill their intellectual potential and expect them to do so. In too many schools, as you said in discussing poverty, the adults simply don’t believe or expect lower income students to succeed and don’t invest in their success. Let’s start calling a spade a spade. And start winning the public war FOR children’s education instead of fighting on the margins AGAINST adults.

  13. comment reader Says:
    April 29th, 2011 at 8:33 pm
    “Mr. Eduwonk has little credibility if he hasn’t spent a minimum of a couple years teaching a class of children in a public school.” This is like saying an oncologist doesn’t have any credibility unless he’s suffered from cancer for a couple years. Conversely, the same logic would dictate that having a headache makes you qualified to perform brain surgery.

    Of course, the truth is that Andy has had more direct and varied experience in education that most people, but that doesn’t matter to those folks (like the commenters above) that are in the death throes of the anti-reform movement.

    So, if you or Mr. Rotherham went to Southeast DC to teach in DCPS, either of you would do remarkably better that the commentor you critique?

    Yeah, right.

  14. Real educational reform, as always, is being delivered by the people who choose to actually teach the children: teachers. They are lobbying hard for equal funding for all schools, early childhood education and support personnel such as nurses and counselors. Most of all, they are bringing attention to the fact that that American children who are not learning as much as others their age are usually children of poverty. Poverty does not CAUSE learning problems but its conditions affect it. (For example, the asthmatic child who can’t afford to see a doctor might miss more school than the privileged child.) Fortunately more and more Americans are understanding this and the media is catching on at last.

    For many years, the status quo in education has been the extreme segregation of children of color and poverty. Even today, children are being herded into all-black academies as examples of “reform.” Let’s destroy the status quo: Join teachers, parents and civil rights leaders in demanding equal opportunities for all our children. It’s time.

  15. I really really really enjoyed the show, I have listened to it several times. I am a Montessori teacher and my GF is a 4th grade teacher in a low income school. We go back and forth on these issues time and time again. Thank you for the work you are doing. This does not have to be a battle. the charter model not is not perfect nor is the public model. Let’s look at what is working now for these children, and bring that to the most communities possible! Diane was great too, you both are on the top of your game and to sit around and criticize your opinions is a fools game.

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