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	<title>Comments on: Vouchin&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html</link>
	<description>Education News, Analysis, and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: D</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-90232</link>
		<dc:creator>D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-90232</guid>
		<description>AttorneyDC,
Don&#039;t be so happy to hear about Florida&#039;s voucher program Google, Figlio, Florida vouchers, and Northwestern University to see why that happiness would be misplaced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AttorneyDC,<br />
Don&#8217;t be so happy to hear about Florida&#8217;s voucher program Google, Figlio, Florida vouchers, and Northwestern University to see why that happiness would be misplaced.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Snyder</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-62394</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Snyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-62394</guid>
		<description>Response to EG:

Because vouchers would not cost more than public schooling, your welfare analogy does not hold water. 
  
In fact, most private school tuitions would cost the government less than educating in the public schools.  (Imagine if welfare actually saved the government money!)  

I do not suggest we make poor families dependent on the government for their needs.   But educationally, why wouldn&#039;t we attempt to open up all possible avenues to a good education (at a cost savings) especially for poor families should be explored.  

Look, it is well known that public education is not &quot;created equal&quot; in poor communities vs. in wealthy suburbs.  If this ideal was realized, I wouldn&#039;t be a proponent of vouchers.   But given the reality that public education is not high quality in many poor communities, I think it is time to get past ideology and find pragmatic solutions to the unmet educational needs of many.  (Yes, not all, but a start.)

Also, referring to one of your previous posts, I&#039;d be interested in hearing more about what you find so offensive about a voucher that allows a parent to choose to educate their child at a quality religious-based school.  I guess my take is as long as the government can assess that 1) the school provides students with a quality education 2) the school provides a civic-minded education, than that school is fit to receive government funds for educating American students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Response to EG:</p>
<p>Because vouchers would not cost more than public schooling, your welfare analogy does not hold water. </p>
<p>In fact, most private school tuitions would cost the government less than educating in the public schools.  (Imagine if welfare actually saved the government money!)  </p>
<p>I do not suggest we make poor families dependent on the government for their needs.   But educationally, why wouldn&#8217;t we attempt to open up all possible avenues to a good education (at a cost savings) especially for poor families should be explored.  </p>
<p>Look, it is well known that public education is not &#8220;created equal&#8221; in poor communities vs. in wealthy suburbs.  If this ideal was realized, I wouldn&#8217;t be a proponent of vouchers.   But given the reality that public education is not high quality in many poor communities, I think it is time to get past ideology and find pragmatic solutions to the unmet educational needs of many.  (Yes, not all, but a start.)</p>
<p>Also, referring to one of your previous posts, I&#8217;d be interested in hearing more about what you find so offensive about a voucher that allows a parent to choose to educate their child at a quality religious-based school.  I guess my take is as long as the government can assess that 1) the school provides students with a quality education 2) the school provides a civic-minded education, than that school is fit to receive government funds for educating American students.</p>
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		<title>By: heartsonmysleeve</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61471</link>
		<dc:creator>heartsonmysleeve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-61471</guid>
		<description>paul is absolutely right. why can&#039;t education reformers see their own hypocrisy? closing down schools where only 30% of students score proficient in math or reading is not virtuous! keep those schools open! the students deserve them! and certainly, don&#039;t try to shake things up internally with administrators or teachers at these schools... it&#039;s not their fault! how can they be expected to run a school when their students come from such troubled backgrounds? or when they don&#039;t have enough money and resources either? thank you, paul for helping point out just how cold and hard-hearted reformers are. I&#039;m glad someone is here reminding them to think about the children.

on another note, wasn&#039;t it democratic lawmakers who also raised the spectre of tuskegee a few years ago when a proposed upward bound evaluation excluded some students from participating in the program? isn&#039;t this an analogous situation? oh the hypocrisy indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>paul is absolutely right. why can&#8217;t education reformers see their own hypocrisy? closing down schools where only 30% of students score proficient in math or reading is not virtuous! keep those schools open! the students deserve them! and certainly, don&#8217;t try to shake things up internally with administrators or teachers at these schools&#8230; it&#8217;s not their fault! how can they be expected to run a school when their students come from such troubled backgrounds? or when they don&#8217;t have enough money and resources either? thank you, paul for helping point out just how cold and hard-hearted reformers are. I&#8217;m glad someone is here reminding them to think about the children.</p>
<p>on another note, wasn&#8217;t it democratic lawmakers who also raised the spectre of tuskegee a few years ago when a proposed upward bound evaluation excluded some students from participating in the program? isn&#8217;t this an analogous situation? oh the hypocrisy indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: EG</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61425</link>
		<dc:creator>EG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-61425</guid>
		<description>Matt -- why not give poor people money and they can spend it on private schools or they can spend it on anything else.  I think we used to call that welfare.

Attorney DC is on the right track here.  If you keep following the logic you end up with public school choice and charters, which is the status quo in DC (minus the Congressionally imposed voucher program).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt &#8212; why not give poor people money and they can spend it on private schools or they can spend it on anything else.  I think we used to call that welfare.</p>
<p>Attorney DC is on the right track here.  If you keep following the logic you end up with public school choice and charters, which is the status quo in DC (minus the Congressionally imposed voucher program).</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Snyder</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61395</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Snyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-61395</guid>
		<description>Sorry, tuition is spelled wrong in above.  In too much of a hurry since I am doing this while still at work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, tuition is spelled wrong in above.  In too much of a hurry since I am doing this while still at work!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Snyder</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61394</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Snyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-61394</guid>
		<description>Attorney DC:
Good point, but my take on this is that it is not so tricky to answer.

Vouchers could be offeed based on income- students in families below or just above the poverty line could receive the choice of full-tution vouchers (both students with and without special ed needs).  Maybe a sliding scale of tution coverage could be given to those who are a bit above the poverty line, but far from middle class.  

While not a cure-all, limited vouchers would expand the choice to those economically-poor families who lack the means to consider other education options that middle and upper class familier already have.  (And, more often than not, these students are also in some of the lowest-performing schools.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Attorney DC:<br />
Good point, but my take on this is that it is not so tricky to answer.</p>
<p>Vouchers could be offeed based on income- students in families below or just above the poverty line could receive the choice of full-tution vouchers (both students with and without special ed needs).  Maybe a sliding scale of tution coverage could be given to those who are a bit above the poverty line, but far from middle class.  </p>
<p>While not a cure-all, limited vouchers would expand the choice to those economically-poor families who lack the means to consider other education options that middle and upper class familier already have.  (And, more often than not, these students are also in some of the lowest-performing schools.)</p>
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		<title>By: Attorney DC</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61361</link>
		<dc:creator>Attorney DC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-61361</guid>
		<description>Matthew: It&#039;s good to hear about the Florida program you mentioned.  As a former teacher (who taught special education students for a time), I am always interested in these issues.  With regard to your second point, my rejoinder would be: So where is the limit?  Who decides which kids deserve these funds and which don&#039;t?  Assuming we agree that there is a finite limit to any city&#039;s voucher capacity, how can we morally say that X number of kids will get them and other students will be denied?  It&#039;s a tricky question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew: It&#8217;s good to hear about the Florida program you mentioned.  As a former teacher (who taught special education students for a time), I am always interested in these issues.  With regard to your second point, my rejoinder would be: So where is the limit?  Who decides which kids deserve these funds and which don&#8217;t?  Assuming we agree that there is a finite limit to any city&#8217;s voucher capacity, how can we morally say that X number of kids will get them and other students will be denied?  It&#8217;s a tricky question.</p>
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		<title>By: EG</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61358</link>
		<dc:creator>EG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Three-sector solution&quot; = traditional public + innovative public (charter) + unregulated constitution-violating unaccountable mostly religious private schools.

How about some new framing: PUBLIC schools with accountability and dollars and PRIVATE schools that people pay for themselves without taxpayer money or regulation.  That TWO-SECTOR formulation is more accurate and works just fine, thank you very much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Three-sector solution&#8221; = traditional public + innovative public (charter) + unregulated constitution-violating unaccountable mostly religious private schools.</p>
<p>How about some new framing: PUBLIC schools with accountability and dollars and PRIVATE schools that people pay for themselves without taxpayer money or regulation.  That TWO-SECTOR formulation is more accurate and works just fine, thank you very much.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Ladner</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61349</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Ladner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3845#comment-61349</guid>
		<description>Attorney DC-

The largest voucher program in the nation is the McKay Scholarship program in Florida, which is for children with disabilities. Almost 20,000 special needs students are attending 846 private schools. If the funding follows the child, private schools will accept special needs children:

http://www.floridaschoolchoice.org/Information/McKay/files/Fast_Facts_McKay.pdf

As to your point about not everyone can go to private school, I don&#039;t believe anyone has ever claimed that they would, or that they need to do so. Like any other education reform, this isn&#039;t an all or nothing proposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Attorney DC-</p>
<p>The largest voucher program in the nation is the McKay Scholarship program in Florida, which is for children with disabilities. Almost 20,000 special needs students are attending 846 private schools. If the funding follows the child, private schools will accept special needs children:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.floridaschoolchoice.org/Information/McKay/files/Fast_Facts_McKay.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.floridaschoolchoice.org/Information/McKay/files/Fast_Facts_McKay.pdf</a></p>
<p>As to your point about not everyone can go to private school, I don&#8217;t believe anyone has ever claimed that they would, or that they need to do so. Like any other education reform, this isn&#8217;t an all or nothing proposition.</p>
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		<title>By: Creech</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2009/03/vouchin.html/comment-page-1#comment-61335</link>
		<dc:creator>Creech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The three-sector solution -- a major buzzword around DC -- isn&#039;t a solution at all.  It&#039;s the fig leaf that enabled vouchers to become palatable in a very partisan city.  But as public policy, it&#039;s contradictory.  Let&#039;s have competition, but give money to the sectors (DCPS and charter) that families are fleeing from?  It&#039;s a win-win-win that means a loss of pressure to force change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The three-sector solution &#8212; a major buzzword around DC &#8212; isn&#8217;t a solution at all.  It&#8217;s the fig leaf that enabled vouchers to become palatable in a very partisan city.  But as public policy, it&#8217;s contradictory.  Let&#8217;s have competition, but give money to the sectors (DCPS and charter) that families are fleeing from?  It&#8217;s a win-win-win that means a loss of pressure to force change.</p>
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