Comments on: Fordham Discovers Federalism! Again!

By: D

Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:07:22 +0000

After reading all the posts, I suggest other readers google Walter Haney and Florida and Texas NAEP scores. Then judge the transparency of some posters for yourself.

By: DJ

DJ — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 03:00:26 +0000

I am finding it interesting to read Mr. Ladner speak of transparency while he touts Florida’s grade 4 Hispanic results without noting a grade three retention policy which filters poor performers from polluting the grade four poll. I continue to fail to see the glory or amazement that a group purged of its low scorers will look better than a group which contains its poor achievers.

By: Azahar

Azahar — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:31:04 +0000

I completely agree students today need to have encouragement and goals to succeed in school, improving the important test scores. Students need to see how their education will affect their life outcome, and how opportunities expand when their test scores and commitment to school rise. This is a great tool I recommend everyone to watch on education today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDfew0YcDTo
That directly relates to what we’re discussing here. What a great discussion everyone!

Azahar (EducationDynamics)

By: Matthewladner

Matthewladner — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:37:39 +0000

Ed-

I’m curious what you think about the Brookings study referenced in this post:

http://jaypgreene.com/2008/12/17/teacher-certification-ineffective-counterproductive-and-possibly-racist/

I would agree that if we could figure out how to predict who is going to be a good teacher, that we should apply a filter. It looks to me that some foreign countries do a much better job at that.

In the absence of that, it seems that the thing to do is to be liberal about who can be hired, but to aggressively let teachers go who do not add value in the first three years.

By: john thompson

john thompson — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:54:37 +0000

Sandy,

This is helpful because it does illustrate our different worldviews as well as views of education. I’d say that 90% of the accountability in the classroom coming from transparency is about right. As I guest blogged last week on TWIE, there is a place for accountability and grades in the classroom, and I don’t beat myself up when I employ them. But if I have to use accountablity measures on students, my lesson hasn’t succeeded.

One thing about education, we will never know who is right. There is room enough for all views, and especially with the shortage in the inner city we don’t have the luxury of battling over different approaches.

By: Ed Fuller

Ed Fuller — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:45:54 +0000

Matthew–We have the lowest barriers to entry in the country. We have a plethora of privately run alt cert programs which require a 2.0 (or less GPA) for entry, no pre-service training, and very little mentoring/induction or in-service training. Where do these teachers become employed? As one would guess, low-performing schools serving large percentages of poor and minority students. These teachers leave at a very, very high rate and are statistically between 50 and 100% more likely to leave teaching within 3 years than traditionally prepared teachers even after controlling for teacher and school characteristics.

We don;t need lower barriers. Rather, we need higher barriers and more pay for those who are effective.

By: sandy kress

sandy kress — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:09:10 +0000

john, i do not agree that transparency is 90% of accountability, and i doubt that, as a good teacher, you do either. accountability is about getting standards and expectations right, having appropriate materials and other support, measuring to see how well students are learning to the standards, using the data that become transparent about these things to improve the teaching and learning process, and taking other steps that will help teachers, students, parents, and others play their part more effectively. it is also, as ed suggests, about getting the most effective teachers in the classroom in the first place.

transparency is a key ingredient – to be sure – but 90%? no way. it’s as if to say that my knowing i’m overweight and by how much is 90% of getting leaner, or knowing that smoking causes cancer is 90% of quitting smoking, or knowing my profits and losses is 90% of becoming a profitable company. helpful, yes. important, yes. sufficient or 90%, no.

By: Matthew Ladner

Matthew Ladner — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:19:43 +0000

Ed-

I will happily amend my statement to “might be/are higher” in 4th grader for you, and are still behind in 8th grade for Sandy.

On the teacher certification front, I’m inclined to think that Texas should liberalize certification still further and then let bad teachers go on the back end.

By: john thompson

john thompson — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:43:03 +0000

Would you agree with John Thomasian, NGA Best Practices Director who said yesterday that “Transparency is 90% of accountability?” If so, how much do we fight over the remaining 10%?

By: sandy kress

sandy kress — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 06:30:40 +0000

i actually agree with matthew that the pace has slowed.

part of this is due to the concerns ed has studied and pointed out clearly and forcefully about teacher preparation. i agree that some of the problem is due to the lack of pre-service training, but it is even more seriously due to the lack of content mastery, particularly in secondary math and science teachers.

part of the problem is also due to the tremendous resistance to change from forces of the status quo. oddly, while the spirit of reform seems to be strengthening in many of our cities, especially where strong mayors have asserted themselves, the energy at the state level has waned in many states, i believe.

finally, in response to john, while i disagree with his statements about nclb and accountability in general, i very much support his common sense suggestion about what principals and teachers ought to do. i’d suggest, too, that accountability ought to consist mainly of solid, research-based help the states and the feds could provide to these educators.

yes, there should be ratings. and, yes, there should be consequences when performance does not improve. but let’s agree that the main response to the data ought to be the very best assistance that can be provided along with the resources needed to improve the teaching and learning process.

the states and districts that have made the greatest progress actually do more of this as part of accountability. take a look at the broad prize winners, for example.

surely, a whole lot more can and should be done. this has become more of my work over the years, as well it should for all of us.