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	<title>Comments on: Innovate Debate!</title>
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	<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html</link>
	<description>Education News, Analysis, and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Rory</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-20510</link>
		<dc:creator>Rory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 05:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3637#comment-20510</guid>
		<description>On blackberry:

Obama will destroy TFA by supporting it.  There are only so many idealistic Ivy League grads willing to work in crappy conditions for crappy pay.  Right now they do it because its selective and looks good on their resume.  An Obama expansion will dilute its exclusivity and turn it into just another unsucessful way of training teachers.

Why has no one ever did a comparative study of effective education schools to see which programs get it right, after controlling for all the usual factors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On blackberry:</p>
<p>Obama will destroy TFA by supporting it.  There are only so many idealistic Ivy League grads willing to work in crappy conditions for crappy pay.  Right now they do it because its selective and looks good on their resume.  An Obama expansion will dilute its exclusivity and turn it into just another unsucessful way of training teachers.</p>
<p>Why has no one ever did a comparative study of effective education schools to see which programs get it right, after controlling for all the usual factors.</p>
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		<title>By: sandy kress</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-17213</link>
		<dc:creator>sandy kress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3637#comment-17213</guid>
		<description>i agree with andy on most things and am sympathetic  with the people and groups he and sara believe to be innovating effectively and creatively.

but, irrepective of bush administration innovations (most of which, i would argue forcefully, have been effective), why and how would the proposed new office work any better than, say, the labs and the comprehensive centers? some of them do good work, particularly, recently. but they do not have a long and rich history of supporting real research-based practice and effective innovation.

perhaps andy and sara will devote an additional piece to explaining exactly how these new federal efforts will be less immune to the congressional pressure, the power of status quo interests, and the many competing interests out in the field so that only, or even mostly, the good will get the funding.

sandy kress</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i agree with andy on most things and am sympathetic  with the people and groups he and sara believe to be innovating effectively and creatively.</p>
<p>but, irrepective of bush administration innovations (most of which, i would argue forcefully, have been effective), why and how would the proposed new office work any better than, say, the labs and the comprehensive centers? some of them do good work, particularly, recently. but they do not have a long and rich history of supporting real research-based practice and effective innovation.</p>
<p>perhaps andy and sara will devote an additional piece to explaining exactly how these new federal efforts will be less immune to the congressional pressure, the power of status quo interests, and the many competing interests out in the field so that only, or even mostly, the good will get the funding.</p>
<p>sandy kress</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-16970</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3637#comment-16970</guid>
		<description>What? The axis of &quot;think&quot; tanks disagree? The echo in the echo chamber has gone mute? Surely this is a sign of the apocalypse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What? The axis of &#8220;think&#8221; tanks disagree? The echo in the echo chamber has gone mute? Surely this is a sign of the apocalypse.</p>
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		<title>By: NO</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-16965</link>
		<dc:creator>NO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>They don&#039;t usually argue at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They don&#8217;t usually argue at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay P. Greene</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-16910</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay P. Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3637#comment-16910</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve added my two cents to this discussion here: http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/21/the-federal-role-in-education/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve added my two cents to this discussion here: <a href="http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/21/the-federal-role-in-education/" rel="nofollow">http://jaypgreene.com/2008/10/21/the-federal-role-in-education/</a></p>
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		<title>By: john thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-16894</link>
		<dc:creator>john thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3637#comment-16894</guid>
		<description>Take KIPP, for instance, as an example of innovation.  A lot of their approach is irrelevent to system-wide reforms because there is a limited number of KIPP students and KIPP teachers, and the way they use them would burn out teachers in a neighborhood setting.  But, like the Hedgehog and the Fox, they have at least one understanding that is essential.  KIPP put into words the awareness that most inner city teachers have - that before you can teach the subject well enough to make a difference in poor children&#039;s lives, you have to first teach them how to be students.  that takes compassion and energy, as well as firmness.  Ordinary bureacracies are unlikely to tackle that issue.  (and haven&#039;t the people at the Flypaper been saying something similar in regard to that awful term &quot;the new paternalism?&quot;)

But it also stands to reason that two aspects of NCLB would have to go if your ideas have a chance.  Firstly, you have to address one of the original sins of NCLB, the attempt to guarentee success.  (why would civil rights crusaders ever seek guarentees?, but that gets off in another story)  There is no guarantee that any single new innovation will work.  So the guarantee/CYA attitude has been death to creatvitity.

Secondly, there is no way to have NCLB-type accountability and make your prosposals work.

When I think of NCLB-type accountability, I think of the scene in the old Vonnegut novel where weights are attached to the arms and legs of ballet dancers.  You can have creative art or your can have top down, social engineering, but you can&#039;t have both.  I see your proposal as a way to cut the chains off education, and release the American spirit.  I&#039;d think conservatives would be more thrilled with that then they are worried that subjectivity to intrude into the decision-making process.  In fact, I&#039;m shocked, shocked that educational politics might intrude into presidential politics.  

I&#039;ve got computer problems so I&#039; can&#039;t take the time to check spelling etc.  sorry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Take KIPP, for instance, as an example of innovation.  A lot of their approach is irrelevent to system-wide reforms because there is a limited number of KIPP students and KIPP teachers, and the way they use them would burn out teachers in a neighborhood setting.  But, like the Hedgehog and the Fox, they have at least one understanding that is essential.  KIPP put into words the awareness that most inner city teachers have &#8211; that before you can teach the subject well enough to make a difference in poor children&#8217;s lives, you have to first teach them how to be students.  that takes compassion and energy, as well as firmness.  Ordinary bureacracies are unlikely to tackle that issue.  (and haven&#8217;t the people at the Flypaper been saying something similar in regard to that awful term &#8220;the new paternalism?&#8221;)</p>
<p>But it also stands to reason that two aspects of NCLB would have to go if your ideas have a chance.  Firstly, you have to address one of the original sins of NCLB, the attempt to guarentee success.  (why would civil rights crusaders ever seek guarentees?, but that gets off in another story)  There is no guarantee that any single new innovation will work.  So the guarantee/CYA attitude has been death to creatvitity.</p>
<p>Secondly, there is no way to have NCLB-type accountability and make your prosposals work.</p>
<p>When I think of NCLB-type accountability, I think of the scene in the old Vonnegut novel where weights are attached to the arms and legs of ballet dancers.  You can have creative art or your can have top down, social engineering, but you can&#8217;t have both.  I see your proposal as a way to cut the chains off education, and release the American spirit.  I&#8217;d think conservatives would be more thrilled with that then they are worried that subjectivity to intrude into the decision-making process.  In fact, I&#8217;m shocked, shocked that educational politics might intrude into presidential politics.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got computer problems so I&#8217; can&#8217;t take the time to check spelling etc.  sorry</p>
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		<title>By: DC Wonk</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-16892</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Wonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/?p=3637#comment-16892</guid>
		<description>Do not read too much into this, those two are buddies and just like to fight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do not read too much into this, those two are buddies and just like to fight.</p>
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		<title>By: CodyPT</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/10/innovate-debate.html/comment-page-1#comment-16886</link>
		<dc:creator>CodyPT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why can&#039;t you respond to a critique of your proposal without making it personal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why can&#8217;t you respond to a critique of your proposal without making it personal?</p>
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