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	<title>Comments on: No End In Sight</title>
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	<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html</link>
	<description>Education News, Analysis, and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Pit Silas</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-147580</link>
		<dc:creator>Pit Silas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-147580</guid>
		<description>Hi - really good web site you have made. I enjoyed reading this posting. I did want to write a remark to tell you that the design of this site is very aesthetically pleasing. I used to be a graphic designer, now I am a copy editor for a marketing firm. I have always enjoyed working with information processing systems and am attempting to learn code in my spare time (which there is never enough of lol).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi &#8211; really good web site you have made. I enjoyed reading this posting. I did want to write a remark to tell you that the design of this site is very aesthetically pleasing. I used to be a graphic designer, now I am a copy editor for a marketing firm. I have always enjoyed working with information processing systems and am attempting to learn code in my spare time (which there is never enough of lol).</p>
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		<title>By: big kippster</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>big kippster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-490</guid>
		<description>Anonymous, the KIPP network is very conscious of the claim that we &quot;skim&quot; the best students or most committed families from the public system. In fact, we make a huge effort to recruit the kids who need us most -- often even going door-to-door, emphasizing that we &quot;take&quot; kids from seven to five -- with the goal of reaching the kids who have the fewest resources available to them. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It&#039;s true that we ask parents to sign a contract indicating that they will check their child&#039;s homework and come up to school for meetings when asked, but I can guarantee from personal experience that we do NOT turn children away when their parents fail to meet those expectations.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My school&#039;s incoming test scores are similar to or lower than those in the surrounding neighborhood, which are in turn the lowest in the city. We do serve a handful of kids who would have been successful anywhere and whose parents chose us carefully and wisely, but we also serve a whole lot of kids -- the vast majority, as far as I can tell -- who were getting few services and little education where they were before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous, the KIPP network is very conscious of the claim that we &#8220;skim&#8221; the best students or most committed families from the public system. In fact, we make a huge effort to recruit the kids who need us most &#8212; often even going door-to-door, emphasizing that we &#8220;take&#8221; kids from seven to five &#8212; with the goal of reaching the kids who have the fewest resources available to them. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that we ask parents to sign a contract indicating that they will check their child&#8217;s homework and come up to school for meetings when asked, but I can guarantee from personal experience that we do NOT turn children away when their parents fail to meet those expectations.</p>
<p>My school&#8217;s incoming test scores are similar to or lower than those in the surrounding neighborhood, which are in turn the lowest in the city. We do serve a handful of kids who would have been successful anywhere and whose parents chose us carefully and wisely, but we also serve a whole lot of kids &#8212; the vast majority, as far as I can tell &#8212; who were getting few services and little education where they were before.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-418</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-418</guid>
		<description>5:32 Glad there is not self-citation in academia.  That could lead to - tenure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5:32 Glad there is not self-citation in academia.  That could lead to &#8211; tenure.</p>
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		<title>By: Yesresearchdoeshow!</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-417</link>
		<dc:creator>Yesresearchdoeshow!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-417</guid>
		<description>Core Knowledge Foundation, E.D. Hirsh, Education Trust, Chicago Consortium for School Research.  Not just Eduwonk spinning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Core Knowledge Foundation, E.D. Hirsh, Education Trust, Chicago Consortium for School Research.  Not just Eduwonk spinning.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-416</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-416</guid>
		<description>Big Kipster, My knowledge of Kipp schools is limited, but don&#039;t families of Kipp students make an enormous commitment in order for their students to attend?  &lt;br/&gt;   In Freakonomics, the author makes the point that in the Chicago lottery for magnet schools, students who chose to opt out of neighborhood schools were were successful whether or not they won the lottery or were left behind. It was the desire to opt out that made the difference, not the school.&lt;br/&gt;    Isn&#039;t this a also strong factor in the success of Kipp students?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big Kipster, My knowledge of Kipp schools is limited, but don&#8217;t families of Kipp students make an enormous commitment in order for their students to attend?  <br />   In Freakonomics, the author makes the point that in the Chicago lottery for magnet schools, students who chose to opt out of neighborhood schools were were successful whether or not they won the lottery or were left behind. It was the desire to opt out that made the difference, not the school.<br />    Isn&#8217;t this a also strong factor in the success of Kipp students?</p>
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		<title>By: Research Shows</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator>Research Shows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-415</guid>
		<description>This blog really gets more ridiculous by the day. If this &quot;argument&quot; was made in any sort of academic setting, I think Eduwonk would be quickly and quietly shown the door.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Allow me to briefly summarize points (a)-(d):&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(a) NCLB is not creating perverse incentives because &quot;plenty of schools&quot; are *not* responding in this way. So policies don&#039;t have effects unless they are generating the effect 100% of the time?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A tax loophole is really not a loophole at all because &quot;plenty of taxpayers&quot; do not take advantage of them? This simply makes no sense.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(b) &quot;Research shows&quot; the best way to raise test scores is to &quot;teach,&quot; not to take shortcuts. Brilliant! Why didn&#039;t we think of this before? This statement is so completely vacuous I&#039;m not even sure how to respond. Is there anything disputable or falsifiable here? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(c) &quot;The best way to teach reading is...&quot; Do we actually know this definitively? If so, can Eduwonk provide some more specific research evidence on this?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(d) Schools are now also examining how they spend their time. That&#039;s a good thing, but there is absolutely no reason why the perverse incentives Eduwonkette describes are at all mutually exclusive activities. Schools can do both, and if the most at-risk schools are the ones  disproportionately re-allocating time instead of examining time, then there is still reason for concern.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Eduwonk and readers are free to disagree, but &quot;research shows&quot; that I am correct! See also reports by Me (2007), Me (2006) and Me (2004) that also prove that I am correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This blog really gets more ridiculous by the day. If this &#8220;argument&#8221; was made in any sort of academic setting, I think Eduwonk would be quickly and quietly shown the door.  </p>
<p>Allow me to briefly summarize points (a)-(d):</p>
<p>(a) NCLB is not creating perverse incentives because &#8220;plenty of schools&#8221; are *not* responding in this way. So policies don&#8217;t have effects unless they are generating the effect 100% of the time?</p>
<p>A tax loophole is really not a loophole at all because &#8220;plenty of taxpayers&#8221; do not take advantage of them? This simply makes no sense.</p>
<p>(b) &#8220;Research shows&#8221; the best way to raise test scores is to &#8220;teach,&#8221; not to take shortcuts. Brilliant! Why didn&#8217;t we think of this before? This statement is so completely vacuous I&#8217;m not even sure how to respond. Is there anything disputable or falsifiable here? </p>
<p>(c) &#8220;The best way to teach reading is&#8230;&#8221; Do we actually know this definitively? If so, can Eduwonk provide some more specific research evidence on this?</p>
<p>(d) Schools are now also examining how they spend their time. That&#8217;s a good thing, but there is absolutely no reason why the perverse incentives Eduwonkette describes are at all mutually exclusive activities. Schools can do both, and if the most at-risk schools are the ones  disproportionately re-allocating time instead of examining time, then there is still reason for concern.</p>
<p>Eduwonk and readers are free to disagree, but &#8220;research shows&#8221; that I am correct! See also reports by Me (2007), Me (2006) and Me (2004) that also prove that I am correct.</p>
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		<title>By: big kippster</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-413</link>
		<dc:creator>big kippster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-413</guid>
		<description>At least I can&#039;t be accused of arguing against a straw man -- Suburban White Guy having presented himself in person. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;SWG, my kids are one of the lowest-scoring groups on record when they enter my school, and I am 100% certain that we can teach them to read, because we&#039;re doing it, every day. They&#039;re not crippled. They&#039;ve just been left lying in bed for the first five years of what should have been their elementary education. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;They were perfectly bright and normal toddlers -- if you don&#039;t believe me, check out the results of the new KIPP elementary schools, whose first and second graders are testing light years ahead of grade level -- and the people who let them lie around on the assumption that they were likely incapable of walking deserve to be held accountable. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Never thought I&#039;d be comparing my kids to Colin in The Secret Garden, but there you have it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least I can&#8217;t be accused of arguing against a straw man &#8212; Suburban White Guy having presented himself in person. </p>
<p>SWG, my kids are one of the lowest-scoring groups on record when they enter my school, and I am 100% certain that we can teach them to read, because we&#8217;re doing it, every day. They&#8217;re not crippled. They&#8217;ve just been left lying in bed for the first five years of what should have been their elementary education. </p>
<p>They were perfectly bright and normal toddlers &#8212; if you don&#8217;t believe me, check out the results of the new KIPP elementary schools, whose first and second graders are testing light years ahead of grade level &#8212; and the people who let them lie around on the assumption that they were likely incapable of walking deserve to be held accountable. </p>
<p>Never thought I&#8217;d be comparing my kids to Colin in The Secret Garden, but there you have it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-412</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Minority kids are &#039;crippled&#039; when it comes to learning?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Minority kids are &#8216;crippled&#8217; when it comes to learning?</p>
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		<title>By: Suburban White Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-411</link>
		<dc:creator>Suburban White Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 04:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-411</guid>
		<description>Reading Eduwonk and some of his fans reminds me of Tinkerbell.  If you believe Tinkerbell can fly, she will fly.  As the old saying goes, wishing will not make it so.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Really guys it is very hard to teach someone who is partially crippled to walk.  In fact, in such a situation one might find that rehabilitation is prescribed, and if you have the right insurance company, paid for.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But to pretend that one can get a cripple to throw away his crutches by  waving hands and praying to God is nuts.  To blame the person trying to help the cripple to walk  because he does not make adequate yearly progress is obviously crazy.  To blame the cripple (read  children from poor families) for not being able to walk normally is cruel.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In the present political context, the Iraq war and No Child Left Behind have many similarities.  We were going to bring democracy to Iraq, and bring all children up to the same level by 2013-14.  No serious person believes this is possible.  Just as with Iraq, we are redirecting vast resources to the wrong objectives.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;NCLB seems like Project Phoenix for education.  Project Phoenix, for those too young or who have forgotten, was our attempt in Vietnam to save the village by destroying it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;NCLB claims to be saving US education, but the public and many careful researchers agree, it may be bringing it down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading Eduwonk and some of his fans reminds me of Tinkerbell.  If you believe Tinkerbell can fly, she will fly.  As the old saying goes, wishing will not make it so.</p>
<p>Really guys it is very hard to teach someone who is partially crippled to walk.  In fact, in such a situation one might find that rehabilitation is prescribed, and if you have the right insurance company, paid for.  </p>
<p>But to pretend that one can get a cripple to throw away his crutches by  waving hands and praying to God is nuts.  To blame the person trying to help the cripple to walk  because he does not make adequate yearly progress is obviously crazy.  To blame the cripple (read  children from poor families) for not being able to walk normally is cruel.  </p>
<p>In the present political context, the Iraq war and No Child Left Behind have many similarities.  We were going to bring democracy to Iraq, and bring all children up to the same level by 2013-14.  No serious person believes this is possible.  Just as with Iraq, we are redirecting vast resources to the wrong objectives.  </p>
<p>NCLB seems like Project Phoenix for education.  Project Phoenix, for those too young or who have forgotten, was our attempt in Vietnam to save the village by destroying it.</p>
<p>NCLB claims to be saving US education, but the public and many careful researchers agree, it may be bringing it down.</p>
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		<title>By: Northerner</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html/comment-page-1#comment-410</link>
		<dc:creator>Northerner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 23:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-end-in-sight.html#comment-410</guid>
		<description>That last comment is right on.   Imagine that schools were responsible for teaching kids how to walk, and from that point, how to play sports.  According to Eduwonkette, it&#039;s a bad idea to require bad schools to prove that (say) 60% of their kids are actually learning how to walk (rather than lying about on the floor), because when put under that pressure, bad schools will put too much emphasis on teaching kids how to walk and will start cutting the advanced rugby course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That last comment is right on.   Imagine that schools were responsible for teaching kids how to walk, and from that point, how to play sports.  According to Eduwonkette, it&#8217;s a bad idea to require bad schools to prove that (say) 60% of their kids are actually learning how to walk (rather than lying about on the floor), because when put under that pressure, bad schools will put too much emphasis on teaching kids how to walk and will start cutting the advanced rugby course.</p>
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