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	<title>Comments on: No Country For Old Rhetoric</title>
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	<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html</link>
	<description>Education News, Analysis, and Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: ed notes online</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-424</link>
		<dc:creator>ed notes online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-424</guid>
		<description>&quot;Eduwonkette needs to spend some time in real schools--high and low performing. It&#039;s hard to write about schools if you don&#039;t spend any time in them, and if you don&#039;t don&#039;t understand what high-quality instruction actually is.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Just maybe it is possible Eduwonkette spent years teaching, unlike so many policy wonks who don&#039;t have a clue.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I know the drill. Schools that are high performing (easy to teach in) = High quality instruction. Schools that are low performing = low quality instruction. To 90% of the teachers with any time in the system = one big joke.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For the record I spent 30 years on what you would term a &quot;low-performing&quot; school in Brooklyn NY. Guess what? I had years with high performing kids (about 1/3) of my school and (more) years with low-performing kids. Guess that makes me a failure as a teacher 2/3 of the time.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Real teachers get a laugh every time they read this crap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Eduwonkette needs to spend some time in real schools&#8211;high and low performing. It&#8217;s hard to write about schools if you don&#8217;t spend any time in them, and if you don&#8217;t don&#8217;t understand what high-quality instruction actually is.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just maybe it is possible Eduwonkette spent years teaching, unlike so many policy wonks who don&#8217;t have a clue.</p>
<p>I know the drill. Schools that are high performing (easy to teach in) = High quality instruction. Schools that are low performing = low quality instruction. To 90% of the teachers with any time in the system = one big joke.</p>
<p>For the record I spent 30 years on what you would term a &#8220;low-performing&#8221; school in Brooklyn NY. Guess what? I had years with high performing kids (about 1/3) of my school and (more) years with low-performing kids. Guess that makes me a failure as a teacher 2/3 of the time.</p>
<p>Real teachers get a laugh every time they read this crap.</p>
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		<title>By: KDeRosa</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-406</link>
		<dc:creator>KDeRosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-406</guid>
		<description>In response to rachel&#039;s comment, let me add:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1.  Another viable option would be to improve instuction so that more learning can be accomplished in less time.  The reason why this isn&#039;t done is because monopolies, i.e., public schools, aren&#039;t very good at improving efficiency.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;2.  You&#039;ll want to take a look at the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, the Minnesota Twin Family Study (and Brouchard&#039;s Reanalysis), the Minnesota Texas Adoption Research Project (and Willerman&#039;s various analyses) which show that parental SES has less of an effect than you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to rachel&#8217;s comment, let me add:</p>
<p>1.  Another viable option would be to improve instuction so that more learning can be accomplished in less time.  The reason why this isn&#8217;t done is because monopolies, i.e., public schools, aren&#8217;t very good at improving efficiency.</p>
<p>2.  You&#8217;ll want to take a look at the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, the Minnesota Twin Family Study (and Brouchard&#8217;s Reanalysis), the Minnesota Texas Adoption Research Project (and Willerman&#8217;s various analyses) which show that parental SES has less of an effect than you think.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-402</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 00:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-402</guid>
		<description>So, to be more substantive...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1) I can say with certainty that our district&#039;s understanding of NCLB requirements is that students in Program Improvement schools who score below proficient in reading or math need to be offered extra minutes in that subject.  This is done by a combination of extending the school day, and limiting access to electives, with science being classified as an elective.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;2) However low the standards are, there is still a question in my mind of how much schools can do for the average child in 6-or-so hours of formal, largish-group instruction, if this is not supported in the off-hours by the sort of informal instruction that is typical of middle class families with educated parents.  Sure, there are exceptional kids, and exceptional teachers, but I think the reality is that effect of informal, out-of-school learning opportunities on test scores (and general academic success) is under-studied, and probably underestimated.  One of the best predictors of students test scores is parent educational level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, to be more substantive&#8230;</p>
<p>1) I can say with certainty that our district&#8217;s understanding of NCLB requirements is that students in Program Improvement schools who score below proficient in reading or math need to be offered extra minutes in that subject.  This is done by a combination of extending the school day, and limiting access to electives, with science being classified as an elective.</p>
<p>2) However low the standards are, there is still a question in my mind of how much schools can do for the average child in 6-or-so hours of formal, largish-group instruction, if this is not supported in the off-hours by the sort of informal instruction that is typical of middle class families with educated parents.  Sure, there are exceptional kids, and exceptional teachers, but I think the reality is that effect of informal, out-of-school learning opportunities on test scores (and general academic success) is under-studied, and probably underestimated.  One of the best predictors of students test scores is parent educational level.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-401</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 00:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-401</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;in her growing role as an apologist and propagandist for the status quo&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;Eduwonkette&#039;s aggrieved partisans are rushing to the comments section and whining...&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I was about to make a comment with some content, but I couldn&#039;t help noticing the irony of the request that commenters keep remarks civil given the tone of the original post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>in her growing role as an apologist and propagandist for the status quo</i></p>
<p><i>Eduwonkette&#8217;s aggrieved partisans are rushing to the comments section and whining&#8230;</i></p>
<p>I was about to make a comment with some content, but I couldn&#8217;t help noticing the irony of the request that commenters keep remarks civil given the tone of the original post.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-399</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-399</guid>
		<description>Evidence means nothing here, just politics: Bush = NCLB, ergo NCLB bad.  No matter what.  Just a few people like Garrison Keilor will stand up and say otherwise. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/garrison-keilor-on-reading.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evidence means nothing here, just politics: Bush = NCLB, ergo NCLB bad.  No matter what.  Just a few people like Garrison Keilor will stand up and say otherwise. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/garrison-keilor-on-reading.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/garrison-keilor-on-reading.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Northerner</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-395</link>
		<dc:creator>Northerner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 19:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-395</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;On this issue, considering how minimal the standards really are in practice, in most cases, people should be outraged when schools cut subjects to meet them, not outraged by the requirements.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That&#039;s the key point.  The NCLB-haters are just trying to shoot the messenger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>On this issue, considering how minimal the standards really are in practice, in most cases, people should be outraged when schools cut subjects to meet them, not outraged by the requirements.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s the key point.  The NCLB-haters are just trying to shoot the messenger.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-393</guid>
		<description>Bottom line, NAEP shows that reading and math AND science AND U.S. history AND civics AND, AND, AND are all seeing score increases...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bottom line, NAEP shows that reading and math AND science AND U.S. history AND civics AND, AND, AND are all seeing score increases&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-392</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Is anyone here, including Eduwonk, arguing that cuts to other subjects are not taking place?  The debate is whether it is unavoidable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is anyone here, including Eduwonk, arguing that cuts to other subjects are not taking place?  The debate is whether it is unavoidable.</p>
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		<title>By: Giveme A. Break</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-391</link>
		<dc:creator>Giveme A. Break</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-391</guid>
		<description>As per usual, you&#039;re resorting to name-calling to address someone who disagrees with you. Would you fairly call yourself an &quot;apologist and propagandist&quot; for NCLB? Having followed this blog for a very long time, I can only imagine that Eduwonk wakes up with night sweats at the very notion that NCLB might be imperfect policy or someday dropped or modified.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How exactly does one have a serious policy discussion with someone who simply applies the &quot;apologist,&quot;  &quot;status quo,&quot; or &quot;entrenched interests&quot; lingo to anyone who disagrees or offers evidence to the contrary?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As per usual, you&#8217;re resorting to name-calling to address someone who disagrees with you. Would you fairly call yourself an &#8220;apologist and propagandist&#8221; for NCLB? Having followed this blog for a very long time, I can only imagine that Eduwonk wakes up with night sweats at the very notion that NCLB might be imperfect policy or someday dropped or modified.</p>
<p>How exactly does one have a serious policy discussion with someone who simply applies the &#8220;apologist,&#8221;  &#8220;status quo,&#8221; or &#8220;entrenched interests&#8221; lingo to anyone who disagrees or offers evidence to the contrary?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: skoolboy</title>
		<link>http://www.eduwonk.com/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html/comment-page-1#comment-390</link>
		<dc:creator>skoolboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eduwonk.com/wordpress/2008/02/no-country-for-old-rhetoric.html#comment-390</guid>
		<description>Wow, the primary season brings out the entire rhetorical arsenal. &quot;Apologist and propagandist for the status quo&quot;?  Hey, &lt;i&gt;I&#039;m&lt;/i&gt; the candidate for change, not the other guy.  I&#039;m not sure why we&#039;re pitting incentives against capacity, or giving so much weight to the CEP report.  School districts are subject to a complex of policies, of which NCLB is just one (although perhaps the 800-lb. gorilla), and reports of instructional time need to take into account the full range of policies to which schools must respond.  For example, a district in a state that has science and social studies testing might not reduce instructional time in those subjects;  but that doesn&#039;t mean that NCLB isn&#039;t having an impact on instructional time in other districts.  Andy, how &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; you explain the fact that districts with at least one school not making AYP are much more likely to report reduced time in social studies than districts with no such schools?  Do you have an alternative explanation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, the primary season brings out the entire rhetorical arsenal. &#8220;Apologist and propagandist for the status quo&#8221;?  Hey, <i>I&#8217;m</i> the candidate for change, not the other guy.  I&#8217;m not sure why we&#8217;re pitting incentives against capacity, or giving so much weight to the CEP report.  School districts are subject to a complex of policies, of which NCLB is just one (although perhaps the 800-lb. gorilla), and reports of instructional time need to take into account the full range of policies to which schools must respond.  For example, a district in a state that has science and social studies testing might not reduce instructional time in those subjects;  but that doesn&#8217;t mean that NCLB isn&#8217;t having an impact on instructional time in other districts.  Andy, how <i>do</i> you explain the fact that districts with at least one school not making AYP are much more likely to report reduced time in social studies than districts with no such schools?  Do you have an alternative explanation?</p>
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